EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Making Money & Owning Your Value with Dr. Nadia Brown
Isha: Dr. Nadia, thank you so much for joining you on, On Purpose.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Thanks for having me, I’m glad to be here.
Isha: Alright, so for those of you who have been connected to me for a while, you’ve seen Dr. Nadia’s name come up. You read about her, even, in the book, Five Rules To Win Being You, and, boy, her entrepreneurial journey has been a whirlwind since we started.
And I want to spend some time talking about that today, and how you really found your lane, and some of those discoveries have just happened here, recently. So this is gonna be breaking news for some folks.
Dr. Nadia Brown: True.
Isha: So, but just getting back to the beginning, at what point did you realize, “Hey, I’m putting my hand up. I need to do my own thing.”
Dr. Nadia Brown: It’s funny. I tell people I was a reluctant entrepreneur, because I never thought I would do that, become an entrepreneur, but I realized, after … I was in corporate, and at the time I worked for Wachovia Bank. Wachovia was shortly after moving to Arizona, shortly thereafter acquired by Wells Fargo, and during that season of just being uncertain about what my next steps were going to be, because while I had a job, it wasn’t quote-unquote, a permanent position, if you will.
So there was a clock ticking, somewhere, that if something didn’t change, you know, I would lose my position. And in that period, I realized that, “You know what? This isn’t it.” And I wasn’t sure what it was, but that was when I was like, “Okay, I need to start kinda of, figuring some things out.”
It took a couple years, because you and I didn’t start working together until about two years after that, but that was kind of the beginning, when I really remember that journey starting in earnest, was during that season of not sure what to do about Wells. So, I eventually took my severance and left. But, because I didn’t know what I was gonna do with my business, I found another job.
But things weren’t the same until I hired you.
Isha: Alright. So, let’s talk about this a bit, because … And this is not a self-serving conversation. But I think you’ll probably be the only person that I will have on this season, who has been a client. But, just to set some expectations for folks, you came to the table unsure about what that path looked like.
And, I think sometimes people think, “Alright, I know this isn’t it. I need to figure out what it is.” You know, sometimes we’ll define it as, “I need to figure out my purpose,” or however we choose to define it. And then you go to a conference or you hire a coach, and you think, “Alright, I’m gonna have a conversation with somebody and tomorrow all the pieces are gonna line up. I’m gonna know exactly what it is.”
Didn’t quite happen that way.
Dr. Nadia Brown: No. And honestly, when we started working together, I was in this period of, I just needed to figure out what my next steps are gonna be so I could prepare for the possibility of being fired. You know, it wasn’t like this glorious experience in a lot of ways, it was just the thing … And I remember us having this conversation.
I was like, “you know, the things that I’ve done in the past, when I started feeling uncomfortable or anxious or whatever it took to get me to move and take action,” and unfortunately, or fortunately, anger is a big one for me, weren’t working anymore. And so, you and I … And I was like, “I just know I’m supposed to do something. I have no idea what it is, I’m really open to what that could be.”
But part of that was motivated because my boss and I weren’t getting along, and I could see the handwriting on the wall that there was gonna be a date either one of us was gonna make a decision, and I wanted to have some level of control over that.
Isha: Yeah. So, one of the things that we often hear people talk about is, are you running from something, or are you running to something? And the reality is, sometimes, you’re running from.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Isha: And, in the ideal situation maybe running to, but, as you say, we’re all motivated differently, and if it hadn’t been for that fire being lit under us, with a negative situation, maybe we wouldn’t move.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I often talk about that. Especially now, because, right? Because they always talk about, hindsight being 20/20, and when I was in it I was really frustrated with my boss, and I remember saying often, “Why doesn’t she just leave me alone, and just let me kind of work and do my job?”
But now, when I look back, she was a big catalyst for me to get out there and serve women in a way that I had no intentions of doing. And so, I still haven’t done it yet, but that’s probably what I should do here, in the near future. Send her a thank you note. Because, she played role, and while at the time it was very uncomfortable, I thank her, because I don’t know if we had gotten along well, in the past, I’d probably still be there. I was paid well, and it was great, and I wouldn’t have left.
Isha: So, when you were there, even before you got to that point of discomfort, when you knew, “This isn’t it. There’s something bigger for me”, what were some of those signs that, you were seeing, or feeling?
Dr. Nadia Brown: Some of the signs were … One of the biggest ones was just, lack of open doors. I remember even, before I left Wells, I was tired of this position, it was … All the signs said, I was an easy shoe-in for this job. My current boss was helping me prepare for transitioning out of this role, it seemed like the perfect job.
When I found out I didn’t get it, I was really disappointed. But then, when I found out who did get it, it was almost like they took a step down. It was like, one of those … Okay, something bigger than what I see, is going on, and I remember feeling distinctly like, “Your season here, is done.”
And, at the time I thought it was just, “Oh, it’s just time for me to leave Wells, and move on.” But, I realized when I left Wells, every job after that, something was distinctly different than before. And, it was hard to put it into words, but it really started that conversation of me, being open to different possibilities.
But, for me, I’m educated, I’m qualified, how come I’m not finding stuff. Yeah, I got a job, but even in that position, there was just, a lot of contention throughout the duration of that role. So, that’s when you and I started working together, because I’m like, “Okay, I got to come up with another plan. Because, what I’m doing over the past two years, isn’t working, and I need to do something different.”
Isha: Yeah. You talked about, being a reluctant entrepreneur. At what point did you decide … Because, the answer for most people would be, “This job isn’t working, let me go find another job.” But, for you to say, “Let me go and build something.” What did that thought process look like for you?
Dr. Nadia Brown: It was scary. It was really scary for a number of reasons. One is, you’re essentially, in a lot of ways, building something from nothing. And, a lot of the stories you hear, you hear your success stories, or you hear the stories of challenge, and it was just, “I don’t want to do that.” But, I think also, you’re walking away from the known, even the known that’s uncomfortable, to the unknown, which, a lot of times is very frightening.
But, there are also other things you got to consider. Your lifestyle. I’m married, and at that time, I was the breadwinner, so there was just, basic numbers and financial things to really consider. Is this a good idea? And, how is this going to impact everyone? Did my husband necessarily sign up to go on this journey with me?
And, so there were a lot of things to consider. But, it was just like, “You know what? Now or never, let’s go out here and see what happens. I can always go back and get a job.” At least, that’s what I told myself.
Isha: Yeah.
Dr. Nadia Brown: And so, that’s what I did.
Isha: How did you figure out what your lane was? There’s so many things … You have a doctorate degree, you have a background in IT, there’s so many different turns that you could have taken from, what you’re doing now as an entrepreneur. How did you land, here?
Dr. Nadia Brown: Oh gosh, as you mentioned, we also made some more recent shifts. The beginning was, one; making the decision to just be open, like I said. And then, two; really get some support. And, you and I walked through some exercises on, really getting clear on what that purpose could be. And, me just getting really excited about what lit me up. Because, I’ve tried things in the past, and I’m like, “That’s not it.”
And, one of the things that I realized is that, I am very passionate about helping women. So, when I started, it was women’s leadership training, and helping women really own their leadership styles, and being more confident as leaders, as women, and not try to take on, or adapt a more masculine-type leadership style. Which, typically when we think about, leadership, that’s what we think of.
And, over the years, it’s evolved. So, one of the things now, that I help women do is, to sell, in a way, that’s authentic to them, where they feel confident. And, a lot of times when you think about, sales, it’s also a very masculine approach. Women don’t sell, or buy the same way. So, there were those little parallels in there, that have shifted.
But, that also was birthed out of some of the challenges and struggles I had, even as an entrepreneur.
Isha: I think that’s so important to know, because particularly, those of us who are speakers, or consultants, or coaches, a lot of times the problem that we help people solve, is a problem that we have personally experienced, or seen up close.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Isha: So, in helping women to develop their authentic leadership style, where did that come from, based on your experiences?
Dr. Nadia Brown: I think part of it was, I was, as a young woman, coming out of undergraduate, I went into IT and engineering. I was one of the few young women, young black women, in that industry. And, as I thought to try to figure out how to move up into leadership, and really be effective as a leader, one of the challenges were, how do I lead as, Nadia? How could I come to work, and be an effective leader, without having to become someone else?
I love to laugh, I love to have fun, I like to be friendly. And, I felt like, in order for me to be an effective leader, I had to be mean, and rude, and cuss a lot, and I was like, “I don’t want to do that.” So, it was just like, “Oh my gosh.” Even then, that was part of what really prompted that. And, over the years, even after I moved out of IT and into some different industries, I saw some of those similar challenges in how to be an effective leader, but still be me, and be authentic to who I am, and my personality. And then, help the women to be able to be able to do that.
It was something interesting, a lot of women have asked me, “How can I be polite, and be direct?” You had to pick one, you can’t be polite and direct, that’s not possible. Or, “How can I be an effective leader, and not be the B word?” Or, you have the opposite, and women are like, “The only way I could be an effective leader is, I have to own it and just be the B word, and anything other than that, is just too soft, and ineffective.”
So, it’s really interesting when you see both sides of the coin, but I was like, I want to add a voice to this that, what if there’s a different way? And, you can still be feminine, and be yourself, and wear pink, or purple, or black, or whatever your color is. Mine is pink. And still be effective, and respected. And, that’s not always easy.
Isha: Yeah. And now, you’ve made the progression into helping women with, sales. Lot of the same issues, and challenges, but, just in general, a lot of folks, most folks, who are in business, that’s the part of their business that they don’t love, male or female. It’s like, “Alright, can’t I just do what I do? And, if I do it well enough,” that whole, “If I build it, they will come. If my product, or my service is good enough, won’t the people just migrate? Won’t they all tell their friends, and I’ll get rich? Why do I have to be intentional? Why do I have to call people?” Really?
Dr. Nadia Brown: Yeah.
Isha: Folks don’t want to do that.
Dr. Nadia Brown: They don’t. Oh my gosh. I make a lot of, “frienemies”, if you will. Because people ask all the time, “Dr. Nadia, how do I build this? What does this look like?” And I thought, have you picked up the phone? And, they just give me side eye, like, “No, I don’t like that. Give me a different answer.” I wish I could, but the truth of the matter is, it’s an effective way to do it. Not to say that, other strategies don’t necessarily work, but when you’re looking at where you are at in your business, or even when you look at some of the bigger brands, and some of the guru’s that are telling you, or showing you, how they’ve done it, some of those pieces also have involved just, picking up the phone and building relationships, and having those connections.
And then, when I realized … So, this was a big thing for me, because I didn’t want to do it, like you said, I was really cool with going out, once I really owned it, in being a speaker, and I overcame my fear of that, and then I had a book, because I was an author, and I was doing my thing, but I didn’t want to do the sales thing. It was just getting to a place of, “Oh, okay. My bank account is going to require me to make some different choices, if I’m going to continue doing what I love to do.”
Actually, and I’m using my air quotes here, “accidentally” fell into a role, where I was supporting a team, and I started doing sales. And then, one day I realized, I was really good at it. And, it wasn’t necessarily until … I didn’t really pay attention to what made me good, because I was just in my flow of learning, and gaining my confidence, and doing all of this, until the owners of the company, they were having a conversation one day about … We were sitting around, chit-chatting about it, and they brought it to my attention that, while I was just as effective as they were, or just as, quote, as successful, in terms of clothes ratio, and all of that kind of stuff. I was very different in my approach.
So, I started to be more intentional, and paying … Intentional, and paying attention to what made me different. And, one of the things I realized was that, once I got over the fear of sales, and making this big old thing, it just boiled down to, having conversation, like you and I are having right now. So, my husband went … Days when he’s home, and I’m working, he would be like, “I thought you were on the phone talking to one of your girlfriends, or your sister, or somebody.” And I’m like, “Oh, babe, I just closed a deal.”
Because I realized, we’re just having a conversation. You have a conversation with a purpose. You’re guiding people. But, at the end of the day, you’re really connecting on that heart level, and if it makes sense, and you know that you can help them, then you extend that invitation. And then, it’s up to them whether they say, yes or no. So, you just let go of all the emotions around, the outcome.
And, that’s the process. I know I’m talking about it like, five seconds, and be like, “Yeah, that sounds easier said than done.” It really is, but once you get to that point, then all the anxiety around sales, really just starts to dissipate.
Isha: What of the things that I see people deal with, particularly folks who have a product, or a service that they are very, personally attached to. So, artists, or people that are creating something with their own hands, or they’re the ones carrying out that task. There seems to be more fear, sometimes, associated with, sales conversations, because if you say, no, it can be easy to feel like, well you’re not saying no to the product, you’re not saying no to the service, you’re saying no, to me.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Isha: How do people get over attaching themselves to the outcome of, whether or not, someone decides what you have to offer is a good fit for me, or not.
Dr. Nadia Brown: It’s a process. And, I know people that say … And, I’ve probably said it too, just don’t take it personally. Well, the truth of the matter is, it’s like someone calling your baby ugly, right? “Did you just call my baby ugly?” That’s personal, those are like, fighting words, right? I’m ready to put my deuce up!
So, one of the things that I encourage people to do is, to pay attention to those things, because that is what will cause you, a lot of times, to hold back. So, one, to keep putting yourself out there, and figuring out your way to work through it. Because you’re right, whether it’s, we’re afraid, we take it more personal, or we undervalue ourselves … Because a lot of what I do, or what I create, I’m a genius at my craft, it comes easy. So, then you’re like, “Why would someone pay me twenty-thousand dollars to do something that only took me seven minutes to do?” Because, a lot of times, we equate money with time, and really started to have those shifts in all those valued conversations that, come up with it.
And so, I just encourage people to, one, pay attention. To be very aware of those triggers, and start to come up with your own strategy around, moving forward. Because, what works for me, might not work for you. And, to set a goal to start and face the monster, if you will, head on. Because, the big thing is, the fear of rejection, and the fact that we don’t like to hear the word, no.
And, when you can get out there, and continue to have those conversations, you … And, the quicker you can get to having a lot of conversations in a short amount of time, that also helps, because it takes away some of that desperation that can come, when you’re looking at, “I have this product, this service, and my bank account may look a certain way.” Or, “I have a certain goal, and a certain amount of time.” But, if you’re having a number of conversations in a short amount of time, it’ll take that away. Because, you’re like, “Okay, Isha may have said no at twelve, but I have three more conversations later today. One of them people might say, yes.”
It definitely starts to shift, even how you feel, from the level of confidence, but also from a level of power. And so, those are also very key things, or strategies that I hope when people put in place, because I get it. It’s personal, a lot of times it feels that way, no matter how many times people may say, don’t take it personal. So, what are some ways that you can work through it?
But also, one more thing I’ll add to that Isha, is that, a lot of times, at sales training, and sales coaching, at least in my personal experience and my own journey, I was taught to feel as if, if I didn’t get a, yes, in that one conversation … And, a lot of times those conversations are thirty minutes or less. It’s like, how fast can you get to the, yes? Right? Then, I walked away feeling like I was a failure.
One of the things that I’ve learned through the years is that, it takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there. And so, I encourage my clients, “You know what? Celebrate the fact that, you had the conversation in the first place. That you had the courage to talk to someone, you had the courage that extended invitation. And then, we’ll look at ways to systematically continue that conversation. Because, a no today, doesn’t mean a no forever. But, we’re not going to beat you up just because you didn’t get a yes, today.”
And, that’s a big shift that helped me move along, and that a lot of our clients really appreciate as they’re learning their own way to make this happen.
Isha: One of the things that I love so much in that, from a very tactical standpoint is, where you talked about, “Okay, I have this call at twelve, and I got the no, but I’ve got another call at twelve-thirty, and two or three more today, and one of those people may say yes.”
The visual that I had, immediately was, when you’re learning how to ride a bike, if you take those training wheels off, and you get out in front of the house, and you get on, and if you fall, you don’t say, “Okay, that’s it for today. Let me walk this back to the garage, we’ll get back out here tomorrow, or next week.” No, you get back on the bike, immediately. And, you keep doing it, and you keep doing it, and you keep doing it, until you figure out how to ride the bike.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Isha: But, we’ve gotten to the point that, we don’t want to feel discomfort. It’s like, if you rejected me, if you said no, if this didn’t … If this made my stomach turn a little bit, I don’t want to do that anymore. I don’t want to not feel good.
And, there are so many ways that we’re keeping ourselves held back in our businesses, because we won’t do anything that doesn’t feel good to us, because we think if this is my business, it’s supposed to feel good. “I left that corporate job because it didn’t make me feel good. I’m going to go do something that makes me feel good. Now, you’re asking me Dr. Nadia, to makes these phone calls? That doesn’t feel good.”
Dr. Nadia Brown: Right?
Isha: I don’t want to do that. Nope.
Dr. Nadia Brown: And, a lot of people don’t. That’s just the truth of the matter.
Isha: And, then you end up having to go back to doing something else you don’t want to do.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Isha: Because, you wouldn’t do the hard things in your own business.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Agreed. Another thing I’ll add to that too is, as you were talking about, learning how to ride a bike, I think too, we also get our numbers mixed up. So, when you think about, like you said, when you’re learning how to ride a bike, typically you’re younger, and you have that group of people that are around you, cheering you on, celebrating the progress. And, no one thinks it’s odd that, the first time you ride your bike, without training wheels, you’re wobbly, or you fall. No ones like, “Oh my gosh, I’m shocked and appalled, how could you do that?” Right?
But, I think a lot of times, when we’re starting our businesses, that’s exactly what happens. We don’t look at the fact that, I may be fifty years old, right? But, my business is one. Or, my business is six months. And, I wouldn’t expect a six month old to just, get up and start doing dissertations and giving public speeches. They can’t even speak at that moment.
But, that’s exactly how we treat our businesses. We don’t give them that time, and that grace. Or ourselves that time, and that grace to do something different, no matter how many years of experience we may have, we’re trying out different muscles, we’re doing different things. It’s amazing how much impatience we have, and unrealistic expectations, sometimes, that we have when it comes to this kind of stuff.
Isha: Oh, that is so good. I hope a whole lot of y’all listening just got free. Your business is six months old. Stop acting like, you’ve been around here for twenty years, or thinking you ought to be at that level.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Isha: Because, how often … I was just having this conversation with another guest who’s on this season, and I was reflecting on it, too. When you pull out your first set of marketing materials that you did, that first business card, that first website, most likely it was terrible, compared to your standard today.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Isha: But, you had to start somewhere. You had to start somewhere. And, if you never do it, then you’ll never get to that point of, “Okay, now I’m flying down my street, on my two wheels, and I can ride up the mountain and do all these other things.”
Dr. Nadia Brown: Right.
Isha: But, you got to do something. Realistic expectations. Oh, that’s so good. That is so good. Now, I want to go back to something that you mentioned earlier.
Really focus on understanding the value of what we provide, and the coupling value of difficulty. You know, it’s like, “If it was hard for me, I’ll charge a lot of money. if it’s easy for me, then it needs to be cheap.”
Dr. Nadia Brown: Or free.
Isha: Or free. Opposed to, how much value is the person on the other side getting from what I do?
Dr. Nadia Brown: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Isha: Talk about that.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Well, it’s something I think is a work in progress. Even I have those conversations, even today with myself, “Nadia, let’s work on our paradigm shift here.”
But, I had a coach that, she said, “What comes easiest to you, you should charge the most for.” And, I was like, “That is one of the craziest things I’ve ever heard.” But, I remembered it. And, when you’re going through your journey, you’re looking at different things, it’s like, “Wait a second,” because, I have this conversation a lot with clients, especially when we’re looking at packaging, and pricing, and all of that kind of stuff.
I encourage them to not look at how much time, or effort it took for you to do it. That is definitely a piece of it. And then, if you are providing anything with tangible hard costs, those are a lot easier to compensate for, or to include in your pricing. But I said, “I want you, from a value perspective, to look at how, what it is that you do, changes someone else life. Because your clients are coming to you for you to help them with something. And, if they could do it themselves, they would do it, they wouldn’t hire you. So, no matter how easy it is for you, it’s valuable for them.”
And, a lot of times we don’t take into account, if I’m helping a client move forward in their business, and I saved them six months of wandering around in the wilderness, sometimes we can’t even put a price on that. The time that is saved. And so, a part of that value conversation is, think about the value that you provide to your clients when you’re helping them with their breakthrough, or their transformation, or you help them build their business six months, or a year faster than if they were doing it on their own. Or, whatever that looks like.
And, look at it through their eyes. Because now, that’s a completely different conversation than what I think I should charge, based on, whatever about me, or my value. No, it’s the value you provide for them. And, a lot of times when people get it, it starts to make that shift, like, “Oh, okay, now I see how I can charge, and do things different.”
The other thing I’ll add too is, I just say, get out, like you said, just start somewhere. So, even if you don’t agree with me, in terms of pricing, because most people are like, “Oh my gosh, Dr. Nadia, your numbers way too high.” Start where you’re comfortable, because once you start doing it, you’ll intuitively just start to say, “Okay, I under charged here,” or, “I need to tweak this.” And, you’ll eventually grow into whatever that pricing structure is. But, if you just get stuck trying to figure it out, and do nothing, then you just never make progress.
Isha: Yeah. That is so true. And, not charging not we’re worth, may be the very thing that’s keeping us from growing. Because, you may be looking to make some investments in your business, or in yourself, or do somethings for your family, and the opportunity is there. But, we won’t get over that fear of charging what we’re worth, and so now we can’t make the impact that we want to make on the world, outside of that transaction.
Dr. Nadia Brown: And, a lot of times, we’re not getting the clients we want. We’re not getting the yes’s, because we’re undervaluing ourselves. And so, one of my examples that I’ll have to use is, if you want to build a Nordstrom business … So, you have Wal-Mart, you have Nordstrom, two very successful companies, they do very different things, they serve different clientele, right? If you’re using a Nordstrom strategy, but you’re trying to get Wal-Mart clients, or vise versa, there’s a disconnect.
So, sometimes, especially in my business, I found that, my business actually got more yes’s when I increased my prices. I rose up, and really stood in my power, and really valued what I was bringing to the table, then I started to get people who valued it, too. And, not to say, that’s always the case, but sometimes, the answer isn’t to lower the price. That’s sometimes like, “Oh my gosh, it’s priced too high.” Maybe it’s priced too low.
Isha: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Dr. Nadia Brown: And, that’s why I said, get out there and have those conversations, and see what happens. But, when you’re in it, you can tweak it a lot faster. Don’t be afraid to fail. I’ve done it, I’ve gone out there and offered something, or I’m like, “Ooh, that was wrong.” Tweak it, and the next time you have a conversation offered, then you make the adjustment.
Isha: Yeah. I think that’s a good point too, we just talked about putting something out there, and tweaking it, making the adjustment; we can spend so much time trying to perfect something, before we know if it works or not, that we end up wasting all this time, because we got to get it perfect, we got get it perfect. You put it out there, spend months, weeks, years, whatever, getting that thing perfect. Then you put it out there in the world, and find out nobody even wants this.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Right.
Isha: Where, if you would have just put something out there, and in the tech world they call it your MVP, your Minimum Viable Product, no it’s not perfect. But, let me just see if there’s even an appetite for this, before I invest all this time and energy.
I did it with my book. I started pre-selling the book before it was even done. And, that actually held me more accountable to finishing it, also. So, same thing, you put together a program, specifically coaches, consultants, folks like that, you put together a program, start to market it, and nobody bites, you didn’t waste the time developing it.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Right.
Isha: Move on. That’s not a failure, that’s a win. Yes!
Dr. Nadia Brown: I’ll say this too, Isha. And, this was something I had the opportunity to learn by working with both men and women on my entrepreneurial journey, one of the biggest lessons I believe I learned by working with men is, they typically don’t have the same hangups around the perfection part. I remember being a part of a team, and I worked with these guys, and we had so much fun, and they were just crazy, right? They would come up with these crazy ideas in the middle of the night, and I remember one time, they were like, “Dr. Nadia, we just came up with this great idea for something,” right? This new product, or service.
Here’s the thing that I learned from this. There was no landing page, there was no sales copy, I wasn’t even a hundred percent sure what we were going to include in this, before I started having the conversations. We just put it out there. We started talking to people. We started getting an interest. And then, as it started to grow and develop, it was like, crap, we better put some more structure to this, because people were buying it.
It wasn’t until after they’d already made, easily, six figures off of this product, this new service offered, that they built the landing page, and all of those tangible … The rest of those pieces. We built it as we went, but they were making money, while they were building it.
I see sometimes, we as women, we wait. The landing page has to be perfect, the email sequence has to be gorgeous, we got to have our client gifts all ready purchased and on the table with the wrapping paper, and it’s like, no dude, get out there, make the money, and then … There is some balance to that, but wow. That was such a valuable lesson I learned. Just get out there and try it.
Isha: Yeah.
Dr. Nadia Brown: And then you can tweak it along the way.
Isha: The balance. I love that you talk about that, because it seems like, people tend to be on one end of the spectrum or the other.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Right.
Isha: Either is, “I’m just going to jump out of the plane, build it before I hit the ground, hope something works.” Or, it’s “I need to run six sigma projects, and create Gantt charts, and have twelve focus groups before I do it.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Right.
Isha: And, the right answer is probably somewhere in the middle.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Right.
Isha: Let’s put some thought into it, but it doesn’t have to be perfect, and we don’t have to have it all figured out.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Right now.
Isha: I can’t tell you how many people that I’ve talked to that, started businesses. Businesses that are now very successful. And they’re like, “Hey, when I started, I really didn’t have a business plan. I really didn’t know what I was doing, fully. I just stepped out there, and wanted to see if this was going to work.”
Now, I think the … Bring wisdom into it, and you look at, what is my risk-tolerance? How much am I going to put into figuring this out? Am I stacking my life savings on it? What does that look like?
Dr. Nadia Brown: Right.
Isha: But, we just got to get a little bolder.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Isha: We got to get a little bolder. So, one of the things that I know, and you eluded to this, and I know it personally, Dr. Nadia, the public speaker used to be the person who wanted to hide out behind the scenes.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I did. Of course you know. Yes. I was like … Because, I have a high gift in administration. And, I know it just … It is. And, I was like, “I don’t want to speak.” And, much like the rest of my journey, it was getting out there, and trying it out and finding my voice. Because, you see the greats, and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, if I could only talk like, whomever.” And it’s like, no, let me just figure out what Nadia’s style is. But, that too was just, let me just put it out here and see what happens, and see what … Even with [inaudible 00:35:25].
Because, I remember when I first started, I was like, “I could talk about all of these things!” And, I had a list of six or seven things I could talk about. And, it ended up being the one. The one thing that I talked about, over and over, for a long time. And, just really getting, and developing my voice in that one thing, and being really good at it, which a lot of times, especially when you’re an entrepreneur. We have all these different ideas, we want to go in a bunch of different directions. But, there’s value in nicheing down, and just being known for that one thing.
It was scary, but I did it.
Isha: Yeah. From that standpoint, even when nicheing, being able to develop a very, deep level of expertise in an area. And, understanding the problem, understanding the people that you’re serving, opposed to, “I can do anything.”
Dr. Nadia Brown: Right.
Isha: “Sure, I can do that. I can talk about that. I can build that. We can do a conference about that.” And, it can be tempting, because it seems like, “Oh, it’ll be more lucrative if I do more.”
Dr. Nadia Brown: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Isha: But, where is the value? Are you really able to bring value to people when you’re just, all over the place?
Dr. Nadia Brown: True. And, this really freeing to really stand in your lane. I actually just had a conversation yesterday … Because, when I started out, one of the things that I did, I used to think I wanted to be a coach only. I didn’t want to speak, I just wanted to coach. Being a coach, [inaudible 00:36:58] just be a coach. That was it. Over the years, I learned there were obviously a lot of different things that I like to do. And, one of the things I love to do is to train, and to leverage my years of experience as a product manager. Really, just help people with that vision part.
But, I’m not necessarily the best person to support people in the longer-term journey. Coaches are very valuable. I have a coach. But I also realized, that’s not necessarily my strength. And, it took a while for me to really own that, and now I tell people … And, people still refer to me as a coach, and I said, “You know, that’s not what I do.” And, so I joke about it. I’m not here to marry you. We’re going to go together for summer, and when school starts we’re going to break up. It’s going to be a very short, teaching kind of thing.
But, one of the things that I realized is that, it was so freeing for me to really own … I love the training, and I love the strategy, or support in a different way. And, I’m okay with that. I know amazing people that … There are great coaches out there. Everyone will support you, and take care of you in that way. But, I do my part, and that frees other people up. But, I don’t have the stress of trying to be the coach, and the strategist, and the trainer. No, I get to do my thing, and I get to rock it out, and then I let people who are way more gifted in that area, do their thing.
Isha: Yeah. And, that’s another thing that’s freeing, because so often you’ll have people that, very well meaning people that, will see your talent, and see the value you’re adding, and they’re like, “Oh, you should do this. You should add this service. You should, you should, you should, you should.”
And, being able to say, I think my line became, “Oh, that’s an interesting thought. Oh, that’s definitely something to consider.” Opposed to, “No, I don’t want to do that.” I know I don’t want to do it, but I don’t want to crush your spirit.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Right.
Isha: “Oh, that’s an interesting thought.” And, you know what? Maybe that person is right. Five years from now, that might sound like a good idea, and it may be something I want to do. But, to not feel like, just because somebody drops an idea, or tries to plant a seed, that you have to let that seed take root, and run with it.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Oh my gosh, yes. That’s why it’s so important to have your vision. I had that very issue earlier this year. I have my vision, I have a five year plan, I know what I’m supposed to be working on, things that I committed to focusing on, right?
And then, I got caught up. I got caught up with some of the folks in my circles, and things that you see in social media, and I was like, “Oh my gosh! I got to create this funnel, and I got to do this stuff.” It’s not part of my current plan. Not that it’s not valuable. That’s not where I’m going with my business right now, and I finally, after spending about a week of wasting time, sitting here spinning our wheels about, why this wasn’t flowing right. It was like, “Woman, look at your plan!” And it’s like, “Oh, this is what I’m supposed to be focused on.”
So, yeah, it’s just like, oh my gosh. It’s so easy to get caught up.
Isha: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So, how do you keep the vision in front of you? Because, it’s still early in the year, everybody creates their vision boards, they create their goals, their strategies, all that stuff, but our actions don’t always line up with what we said we wanted to accomplish. So, how do you stay … And, you mentioned, there has been some deviation. But, what are the things that you’re doing now, to stay focused on, “Hey, does this line up to the vision or not?”
Dr. Nadia Brown: One of the things is, write it down. So, my vision is written down. I just conveniently placed it out of site while I was spending my time, spinning my wheels. And, the other thing is, having a level of accountability, whether it’s a coach, or an accountability partner. I have what I call, my council, so it’s actually three women that I check in with at least, once a month, and we talk about what’s going on.
Because, what I also found over the years is, what’s … It’s true. We hear a cliché, but what’s measured actually gets done. But, also tracking revenue. So, sometimes it’s hard to talk about certain things, especially for me, I don’t want to talk about that. Even like, a lot of times, even if you notice some of my marketing, I don’t really talk about how much money … I’m not that one, “Oh my gosh, on May seventh, they,” That’s not my approach.
So, I’ve noticed, even sometimes in my coaching relationships, people that were there for that purpose, in some ways, I wouldn’t talk about it. Like, you know, I’m good. But, I challenged myself, starting last year, and one of the things in that call, I talk about how much came in the previous month, and how much is projected for the current month, whether I hit it or not.
And, what I found though, is that my revenue is actually increased exponentially.
Isha: Hmm.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Just those levels of … Having that level of accountability. But, being willing to look at the numbers, or talk about the things that make you uncomfortable. In that too, is what … So, we took some time to figure out, based on what I want to build, and my business, and what makes sense for how I want to build it, what marketing activities make sense?
It doesn’t necessarily … We’ve learned over the years that, me speaking, great. Definitely do that, whether it’s online, or in person. That’s a great strategy, it works for me. Do more of that, and then be strategic about where I speak. So, some of these other things that I could be doing, may not be the best strategy for what I’m building right now.
And so, writing that down. I literally, Isha, have marketing do’s and marketing don’ts.
Isha: Oh, I love that.
Dr. Nadia Brown: And so, just getting clear. So, like I said, sometimes we get caught up, and we’re excited, and we’re like, “Oh my gosh!” Especially when you get things like, Facebook live, and everybody’s like, “You got to do Facebook live or your business is going to die.” And, it may not be a good fit for where you are right now, and what you’re building.
Isha: Right.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Are your clients going to watch Facebook live? And, one of things I realized is, part of what I provide, especially from a sales support, my clients, that’s not what they’re doing, based on where they are in their businesses. And so, it doesn’t make sense for me to do Facebook live at that level to attract those clients.
Now, I might try a different type of client for a different offer, but I have to be very strategic about my marketing do’s and my marketing don’ts.
Isha: Oh, that is so good. So good. So many people are spinning their wheels thinking, “I’ve got,” If there’s a new tech tool, “I got to be there. I got to be there, I got to do it.”
Dr. Nadia Brown: Now I got to get on Instagram, and Snapchat. And I ask, “Are your clients there?”
Isha: Right.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Are they?
Isha: Exactly. And, you can’t be good at five things. And, if you’re doing … Here’s what I’m trying to figure out, if you’re spending all of that time doing all of those different things, when are you building, or when are you serving your clients? When are you actually talking to people?
Dr. Nadia Brown: Exactly. Exactly. I had a coach, and this was very unsolicited advice at the time, but she was just like, “I’m just going to give you some coaching advice. You need to do at least, four to five Facebook lives a day.” And, I was thinking to myself, um, that sounds great, and like you said, when do I have time to have sales calls, or do connections, or work with my clients, and support them, if I’m constantly in that space. So, even if I do a live, it’s not going to be multiple times per day, and it’s going to be very strategic.
Isha: Right. We get caught up spending so much time looking like we’re successful.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Isha: That we don’t actually invest the time into being successful.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Right.
Isha: So, it’s time out for all of the appearances. Do the work.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Right.
Isha: And, all of it isn’t sexy in life. And streamed.
Dr. Nadia Brown: It’s not. It’s not. Let me tell you. Even though I do sales, and I understand … There are days when, even I’m like, “Oh.” You know? It’s just days. I had one last month, it was a day of no’s. For whatever reason, everybody was a no, and I was all up in my feelings, and I just had to be like, “Okay, today was so not a sexy day. I’m going to go get a mani/pedi, and get myself together. But tomorrow, I’ll get back into it.”
There’s those days where, even the best of us, it’s like, yeah, this day kind of sucks.
Isha: Right.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Tomorrow should hopefully be better.
Isha: If professional athletes can have a bad game, what makes us think that, we’re any different.
Dr. Nadia Brown: True. Absolutely.
Isha: We have bad days. It happens. It happens. So, one of the things I want to talk about is the growing up of your business. So, you recently made a major shift that, I would love you to talk about, because it’s something that, many folks that have been in business for years, and years, never get to the point that they even consider doing this. You know what I’m talking about, so go ahead and talk about it.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Oh my gosh. It was hard. Let me just tell you, it was … For those who don’t know me, like I mentioned earlier, when I started I did the sales training, all about women and sales … Not sales, that is not true. I was leadership. Leading like a lady, having that voice, all those types of things, right?
So, I did that for years, I had the book, I was traveling, and all this kind of stuff. And then, like I said, I started that shift with the sales, and I started to do some sales support, and then some sales training, and I put my toe in, and I took my toe out, and I was like, “I don’t want to do that.”
And, it took … One, it took people who knew me, and who saw something that I wasn’t willing to see, to continue to say, “Hey, Nadia, maybe you should think about this, and what could that look like?” So, there were people who had the opportunity to see me in action, when it came to sales training. They would say to me, “Oh my gosh, I learned so much from you.”
And then, also just seeing that ability I had to help people, like with the sales support. But, I hadn’t really seen that model. And, so a lot of things that, I was seeing, or what I thought I wanted for a very long time was to … I just wanted to build this coaching business. And, I got to a point where I was like, “Okay, something is off.” You know when you’re just in that place, and you’re just like, “Okay, something isn’t right.”
But, for all intents and purposes, things are working, right? Things are working, and not necessarily broken, but something is off. How do you reconcile the two. And so, I just had some quite time. I actually slowed down, like way down, which is hard for me to do. And, that was when my council was born, and the four of us got together, and they sent over some questions for me to think about. And, for the first time, I really got really, really, truly honest about what I wanted to build.
It wasn’t what other people were telling me I should, or could build. It was, what do you want to create? And, one of the things that I realized, I was like, “I want to build a real company.” And I might say real, but I was like, “I want to build a company where I have employees. I want to build a company where I can provide jobs, and what does that look like?”
And, that’s stressful. It’s scary to even say out loud, right? It’s like, crap, now I’m not only responsible for me, but at some point I’ll be responsible for other people. So, we started to put those pieces in place, and what could possibly be like, a sales agency, where we provide sale support. So, I have clients that outsource their sales to me. We are looking to build that, so we can support more clients, since their businesses are growing.
And, there were people like, Isha, and a couple other folks that, came along the way, just dropped these little nuggets. And, I was just looking at them like, “What are y’all talking about?” It’s like, “I’m not building that.” And, it took a while to get to that place.
And so, the shift was to really own that, this was something neat. But, the risk in that too was, a lot of my identity I felt, was tied up in me being known as that leadership expert. How then, might it look if I shift my conversation? Shifting my business model, because now support clients in a different way. Part of that meant I canceled my annual event, which was, not only a dollars and cents kind of decision, but we’re in the middle of trying to promote this. I released some clients and programs that I offered, I no longer offer.
And, I took the risk of … I wasn’t completely convinced that, people would pay me for what it is I said that, I wanted to offer. So, when I tell you to get out there and try it, it’s not a voice of theory, this is something that I live. So, I just put it out there, here’s how I can support you, heres how I think it might work, in terms of pricing and structure, and all of that. And, I continued to tweak it to decide. To figure out who’s the best client for this level of support, versus a different level of support.
But, yes. I walked away from coaching, and I really just owned the fact that, I could do it, and there are people who really have grown, and gleaned from me as a coach that, I get to now provide sales support for clients. I get to do sales strategy with the [inaudible 00:50:36]. I get to help people build their sales teams through training, and to take on a a completely different business model, and to just watch that grow and morph has been quite fascinating.
Isha: Yeah. And, financially, you making that shift, has paid off well.
Dr. Nadia Brown: It has. In the beginning, right? You’re taking this risk, like you said, your risk-tolerance. And, part of me was like, “Man, I’ve been at this business thing,” And, I was in a season where I had already, if you will, been on a mountaintop, and back in the valley, and I felt like I was finally coming back, on my way back to the mountaintop, and to intentionally? Again? It was like, “Oh, c’mon Nadia.”
But, I did. So, I’ve been looking at record numbers. My business is now generating revenue that, it has never generated before. And, it didn’t take forever to do. So, the risk was worth it, and it’s continuing to be worth it. But, let me tell you, it wasn’t that way. There’s was some months I was like, “I don’t know if I made the right decision.”
Isha: Yeah. It’s such a good example of what happens when you make the tough decisions. Because, you can be achieving a level of success, and comfortable, and I know how to do this, and it’s not where you’re supposed to be. We’re doing good, but we know that good is the enemy of great. So, how do I get bold enough, and brave enough to make that shift into the way I know, at this point, I’m called to serve the world.
And, it doesn’t mean that, whatever we were doing at another point wasn’t what we were supposed to be doing.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Right.
Isha: But, we evolve. We evolve as people, our businesses evolve, and we get called to another level of serving the world. And, we’ve got to be willing to take that next step up, even if it’s scary and uncomfortable.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree.
Isha: Yeah.
Dr. Nadia Brown: It’s been worth it.
Isha: Yes.
Dr. Nadia Brown: I’m excited to see what this year brings, as we prepare to [inaudible 00:53:03].
Isha: I’m so excited for you.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Thank you.
Isha: Yes. Alright, so I’m going to do some rapid fire, tale of the tape. And, I’m going to put more pressure on you to do this fast, because you’ve seen this before. So, we do this with all of our guests, we go back to that model, I talk about it in my book, Five Rules To Win Being You, do it with my coaching clients. If you’re a boxer, if you’re an MMA fighter, before the fight, the commentators have that segment that they call, the tale of the tape. And, they look at your height, your weight, your professional record, the circumference of you wrists, which seems random. They look at your age. None of those things are random, because any of those factors can uncover a competitors unfair competitive advantage.
And, when we figure out our tale of the tape, our talents, abilities, passions, and experiences, that can allow us to identify our unfair competitive advantage, when it comes to serving the world through business.
So, let’s talk about Dr. Nadia’s tale of the tape.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Alright, let’s do it.
Isha: Talents. Those things that just come easy to you, you flow, it’s not hard work.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Oh my gosh. One is, like I mentioned, administration and organization. Another one is just, futuristic. One of my strengths is, I can see the big vision, and then break it down. And, I’m a fast learner, so even though …Especially when I’m coming in to support businesses, I can quickly come up to speed about, what your business is, and your products, and operate the clients, so that we can hit the ground the running. So, those are some of my talents.
Isha: Excellent. Abilities. Those things that you worked to be good at, but it’s a clear strength for you at this point.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Oh my goodness. Speaking. Speaking is one, and the sales. Just, figuring out the best approach to sales, and how to build relationships in a way that’s authentic to me, are definitely two abilities that are serving me very well in my business now.
Isha: Passions. What are you passionate about?
Dr. Nadia Brown: Passionate about helping women. Operate in their purpose, but also … Especially women entrepreneurs. A lot of us start our businesses because we figure out our purpose, or we have a particular passion. So, my passion is to help you do your passion, but be profitable in the process.
Isha: I love it. And, experiences. Not just, what have you done, or accomplished. What are the things that have happened in your life, good or bad, that have shaped the way that you see the world, and the way that you relate to people?
Dr. Nadia Brown: I think there are two big ones that have really helped shape where I am now. One is, getting my doctorate, and going through that whole educational process. It’s taught me the stick-to-itiveness, to just focus on the big goal, and get there. Because, you run into some bumps along the way, but you get to graduate at the end, right?
The other one is, the fact that, when I started my business, I was good, I was passionate at certain things, but I sucked at sales, and that fear and that dark place that I went through in my business, that I thought was so hurtful, and shameful, and that it was something that I would never talk about, is actually … Was a bad, that turned into good. Now I can use that experience to help others.
Isha: I love it. I love it. So, two more questions. What piece of advice would you give to someone who is just getting started?
Dr. Nadia Brown: Don’t give up. Knowing that failure is part of the process, and it’s not always a bad thing. So, think of way to fail faster.
Isha: Yes. And, what’s your definition of success?
Dr. Nadia Brown: My definition of success is, when I get to wake up every morning, doing what I love, serving clients that I love to work with. But, also having the freedom to do things that, I want to do. Which, a big one is travel. So, being able to do that, that’s my definition of success.
Isha: Alright. Well, congratulations Dr. Nadia Brown, because you are a success.
Dr. Nadia Brown: Thank you.